Denise Wymore Returns

Sue: Hello, and welcome. Fellow Awsomologists to Awsomology. I'm Sue.

Ben: And I'm Ben, and in this episode, we're welcoming a returning guest, Denise Wymore. Denise is the marketing manager for small credit unions at ZEST AI. President and chair of the board of the De Novo CU collective, which we'll talk about a little bit, an author and self-certified in the art of GSD, which maybe we'll define that. Welcome, Denise, we're so happy to have you here.

Denise: I'm so glad to be back. I love that self-certified. Okay. You're exactly right. We'll talk about that.

Ben: Well, let's... we... we really don't like to keep our audience in waiting in too much in anticipation or angst. So let's just define GSD. Let's get that done right away.

Denise: I have to give credit to Sue Mitchell at an underground. And she said, we need to, I'll just say it. We need to get shit done. And then later, she made it get stuff done. And I thought, you know, GSD, that's the thing that I've always kind of pride myself on is is just diving in and getting done. And so I added it to my I that day, I added it onto my LinkedIn profile.

A hundred percent of the people I've talked to think it's some kind of doctorate or some kind of real degree, which cracks me up. And then when I tell nobody's at very few people have asked. They just assumed that I had some, you know, high level degree. Like, I do. Self-certified GSD.

Sue: Yeah.

Ben: Love it. Love it. And we we need the GSDs in the in the world. Lots of people with great ideas and that love to talk, and there's a lot of people that, make all that stuff happening. So thanks for being a certified GSD. We like it.

Sue: Yeah. We should, you know, we should really talk to you. So if you can certify us, if we can certify ourselves or how that process works, I know.

Denise: You know, I think I know what your one of your last questions are. I'm gonna wait there because I have a really good idea. Oh, nice little book ends.

Sue: Okay. There we go. Spoilers. I love it.

Well, a thing that we know about you, Denise, is that you have, a wealth of knowledge and passion for what you do and so it is hard after we got a chance in August, to have you on our first ever live live podcast, which yes, I have never gotten over.

That we guys did do that... after we had the opportunity to have you on there. It was really hard to decide what - Denise has so many things that we could talk about.

But we invited you back for this live recording and you were all about it already in August.

And I remember saying, you know, we can talk about anything you wanna talk about. You said, yes, small credit unions. We've got to save them.

Is what you said to me?

So I think that's a good place to start.

Denise: It's my favorite subject. It's my favorite subject. And, you know, as Kyle Heltman recently said, an NCUA board meeting, their three thousand credit unions still under two hundred and fifty million, and that is not a niche that is the industry.

Right?

Ben: Right.

Denise: And so and I'm so glad when he said that because, you know, it yes. It is harder and harder to run a small credit union.

We can't save them all as much as I would like to there. I've met many in in my travels in the last several years that don't wanna be saved. Know, I mean, to be honest, I I think some of them are gonna go away for various reasons. But for us as a movement to say that you cannot survive, unless you have certain asset size is an irresponsible statement, in my opinion.

And it's short sighted and it's, flies against if if the people that say that I think have, like, never been to the America's Credit Union Museum, probably are not aware of the history of Credit Union as a why they even started in America. If you go back and look at that, I mean, the the reason why we have financial cooperatives is because the little guy, the little guy was not being served by banks, they had no choice but to go to predatory lending and loan sharks. And so people pooled their finances to work together to collectively save so that they could loan to basically, as a friend said, the credit union is like, borrowing from your friends, family, and coworkers only in the less awkward way.

Right? And so that's what that's what the original credit union motto sounds very simple. And yet when you look at the, the values behind it and the mission, there's nothing like it in America. And if credit unions disappear, which is we're on a trajectory of of becoming more just like a a bunch of community banks, if you will.

Then we lost that option, and we Americans should have that option. The credit unions are kind of like, I think the original the same about this, the original Apple computer. Like with Steve Jobs. He never wanted or expected Apple to be the largest selling computer. Right? It was he just wanted to be the best.

You know, and so credit unions, you know, we have eight percent market share. We're going, we always kind of have. I don't think we ever thought that, you know, we would represent eighty percent of financial institutions in America, but we wanna be the best. And so if you look at the uniqueness of these small credit unions, you go out to a a remote community and you see a church with nine hundred people.

And if that credit union weren't there, it would be a bank desert. And it serves a unique purpose for these parishioners. They basically just do signature loans for these parishioners. But if if you go to church and I do, there's no stronger community than that, and you think about them pulling their resources.

Should that credit union survive today? Yes. Absolutely. Do a lot of people think it should or could? No. A lot of people think it it should merge, and it's not gonna make it because it's not growing. And I disagree.

So I, you know, I I see there are more of those stories in small credit unions than there are of people who are giving up. But technology has become extremely expensive or is extremely expensive. And I think that's really the boat anchor weighing the small credit unions down right now. Not only are they in a bad core system with a very long contract that they're stuck in, literally being held hostage, but we need to work together to create economies of scale through a cuso model, which we have, in fact, Sue Mitchell, I mentioned her earlier.

She's been working with our group, through the underground, to start a a CUSO called the Revolution CUSO, which we envision it being kind of a CUSO of CUSOs, if you will. And that is geared specifically to have small credit unions be able to get more buying power collectively to get into better technology and to be able to advance in the digital world. It makes - we know what the answer is. It's a CUSO model.

The Sixth cooperative principle, cooperation among cooperatives tells us it's the keys to model. And so it's just a matter of building And we've got a lot of traction in that area. I'm really excited about it.

Ben: Yeah. That's amazing. I mean, to know that, you know, the core system is a major issue for so many of these small credit unions.

I don't know if I necessarily wanna say it's easy to identify that, but maybe one of the easier things to just see with your own eyes or hear from them, than to have the solution for what replaces that is maybe the more challenging part. That's super cool and interesting that there's something in the works.

And in in the credit union way, right, in this collaborative way through the CUSO model, which obviously we're a little partial to being accused to ourselves. So, amazing. That's a really, really pool to share. I I just have one little, like, side question, and I don't wanna throw you off or put you on the spot, but very early on when I came into the credit union movement, one of the first things that I heard was the bigger and bigger credit union gets the more and more like a bank. Right? You kind of alluded to that, you know, as more mergers and things happen and credit unions, growing asset size and stuff, we maybe look more and more like community banks.

How does how does the merger is gonna happen. Right? I think, you know, everything that people like you and us are doing to help support small credit unions to keep them alive, keep them, you know, thriving, and, really see have their membership see the value of their existence.

While we might be trying to do that, we understand that some merger is still gonna happen. For those credit unions that grow in asset size and look more and more like, a community bank. What's the other option for them? What can they do to keep the credit union spirit alive, keep the model true, and actually continue to be a credit union and not just something that looks and smells.

Denise: Yeah. You know, I think there are a lot of there are a lot of big credit unions that do amazing things in their communities. You know, I mean, I think that's one of the advantages too. When they do get bigger, they've got more resources, they have more people, they have more, you know, funds.

And so to say, you know, big credit union bad, little credit union good is is not at all know, my message because there are a lot of large crayons that do I mean, I see some here locally in in New Mexico that do amazing things in their community, but I I guess, you know, the thing that's it's kind of ironic is, as the movement continues to shrink, taxation has been the threat of taxation, I've been in creating these over forty years. I think it's always been top of mind. Right? I mean, it's just forever and ever and ever.

We go to the GAC. It's all we talk about. America's credit union says, number one, job one, keep us from being taxed. And yet when we actually go to testify and we say, here's the Credit Union difference.

What is that Credit Union difference?

That's what we're needing to protect. Right? We need if we wanna protect ourselves from taxation, we need to protect the real credit union difference.

And the more that it looks like a financial cooperative truly people, helping people affinity know, let's talk about, you know, financial inclusion too, right, and and serving the underserved.

The mores we can shine a light on that, the more we are protecting that credit union difference, and you see it in the small credit unions. It's so easy to show that story in the small credit unions. And so there's kind of a concern if, like, if we don't preserve that, then is taxation inevitable?

Right? And I mean, I'm I'm kinda neutral on the issue of taxation, to be honest. But I know that that's job one, right, for the state trade associations and for the National association.

Job one right now should be starting a credit union. People think I'm insane.

But job one one should be starting new credit unions, and I don't know if you guys saw Becky Reed, published her first book. And Becky Reed is everywhere right now because she is a pioneer in distributed ledger technology, and she and John Windgate at Bank Social have an application into the NCUA to start a new credit union on blockchain. So with decentralized finance, on blockchain technology.

And in doing so, they have created or are creating a template so that a new credit union model the template is there. It's really hard to start a new credit union because there's there's no template. There are no sample policies and procedures. There's nothing on the NCUA website State trades. Nobody nobody starts new credit unions today. Right? It's nobody's job.

But Becky and John, it's a renaissance. I mean, it truly what they are doing right now is creating a blueprint for the future of the credit union movement in starting many small credit unions, which is exactly what we've needed. Right? Because the current model is so laborious for a couple reasons, in fact, Becky, shine the light on it. You know what, where the tipping point was where credit unions started to actually shrink in size through merger and we stopped starting them as rapidly was actually, in the eighties, and I started in the eighties.

When the S and L failure happened. And when the S and L failure happened, that's when the NCUA swooped in and said, we're gonna have a requirement that you have capital.

Think about it. That's when it really that was, like, when the bird flapped its wings, right, and there was a hurricane, like, that was or the butterfly flapped its wings on that day and said you have to have capital And so it became harder and harder for credit unions to raise and maintain the capital requirement, and then coming in It's about a million dollars. Right? And that has to be donated capital. And so that was really the moment, and Becky showed me that. That was the moment the change where it became harder not only to stay open, but really hard to start a new one. So that capital requirement in her new model, I've seen a little sneak peek of the new model is not as onerous.

And and that's huge. And the cost of technology is pennies for transactions compared to the dollars that we have right now. So she solves two of the issues, and I'm excited. I was super excited.

Super hopeful for the future of credit unions. And again, in Renaissance, I think it's you know, we're going into into web three point o. My gosh. I'm old enough to have been web one web nothing Right.

We have what? To, you know, we have one point zero two point zero now where I'm living all the way to three point o. But it's exciting. You know, it's it's really exciting to see all that change in my career, and rather than being afraid of it, you know, I'm embracing it and folks like Becky and John who I get to play it in their sandbox with them.

They're they're pioneers. And that's exactly what we read need right now. Edward Felene was pioneer.

Right? And we need someone that's bold and brave. I'm gonna try something new, and that has a good fault, like, social media. They have a great we've we have that thankfully now.

Right? Didn't have that in nineteen thirty four. Somehow everybody got to Estes Park, Colorado. We have no idea.

They had no cell phones. I don't know how they did it.

Ben: Yeah.

There's no internet. It's a miracle when you think about it.

Sue: You're saying they didn't Uber?

Denise: There was no- I'm gonna say there was no Uber.

Sue: To Estes Park.

Denise: Yeah. I'm gonna say there's no Uber and, probably not a greyhound bus.

Sue: Okay.

Denise: Yeah. But sometimes they did it for those of you that don't know. I would it that was kind of the moment that was the birth of the National Credit Union Movement. Big Yeah. Famous picture, nineteen thirty. Go to America's Credit Union.

You will see it.

Right? Yeah.

Ben: But there's there's so much to unpack there. I think one takeaway that I would have from what you just said was, you know, I guess back to the to that question of, you know, what can larger credit unions do to keep the credit union spirit alive and stuff as, you know, what, one, b and just been in the movement. Right? You know, there just like there were new capital requirements, as credit unions get larger, and there's you know, additional requirements and regulation and things like that that make it tougher to feel like a small credit union that maybe doesn't have to deal with some of the things that a larger credit union does.

So thing that they can do because they have maybe the time, the talent, the additional resources of a larger credit union is support these efforts to help do some of the amazing things that you're talking about, like, starting new credit unions, supporting the new technology that might make, starting new credit unions possible and and things like that. So no matter what size credit union you are, there's still an opportunity for you to help keep that small credit union, that that movement alive, and that's, you know, I think such an important word that some folks like to dance around and call it an industry because it feels more natural and people know what an industry is, but it it started as a movement.

It is a movement, and we can all participate in it. That's really important to keep that alive, that feeling of it really being.

Denise: Yeah.

Sue: And and what a great time in history or - and maybe better. Maybe would have been better if we had never had to come back to have a renaissance.

But what a great time to have a renaissance? Because I think in the marketplace, the generations that are coming up now and are going to be making decisions are looking for that kind of, that kind of agency in the things that they do. They want that. They want to be able to... ah... they want to be able to do their business and be customers of businesses that are ethical and are creating change in the world and doing all of the things credit unions have done for over a hundred years and what a great time to be able to re-, you know, re-proclaim sort of that gospel of credit unions and people helping people and financial cooperatives And, and maybe don't tell all of the younger people this, let them think they thought of it.

Denise: Oh, yes. That would be awesome if they they were to embrace it and say this is our idea, that's probably one of the things we really truly need because you're absolutely right. And the groups that have come to the CU De Novo collective that are going through the path, the gauntlet, if you will, the NCUA process. You know, they've- they've Like, why don't they become a seg of a large credit union?

I get that question a lot. You know, why do they need to start their own credit union? And it's because a lot of what you just said, if they they really understand the value of the affinity of their group. Case in point, about a month ago, I was introduced to the African diaspora proposed African Diaspora Council Federal Credit Union They're in stage three of the NCA charter process.

I learned a new word. I didn't know the word diaspora. I had to put it in the Google machine. When I learned about, you know, this this group together, in one of their their problems, African- So these are African immigrants to America as well as African Americans in this council, and they wanna start their own credit union. And they found that, and they shared this with me is that they're actually kind of very distrustful of one another.

And yet when they came up with the because they had this council and they have they these chapters actually all over the world I learned.

And it's a cultural center, but they have introduced a concept of a credit union for them and they really like it because so many of their, members are using payday lending. Right, to make ends meet, you're getting stuck in that cycle, which is awful. And that's one of the first products they wanna offer is a payday lending rescue program, if you will. But when I've I've met with these two folks, Michael and Reo, and I hear the story of, one of the issues they also face, many Africans, like Hispanic in America, they send money home.

Right? They they come to America, they get a job, they get good education, and they're supporting families. Back home, and they're wiring money. Do you know how much money it costs them to wire money?

Because they have to use things like MoneyGram and Western Union, It is seven dollars per one hundred.

Sue: Oh my god.

Denise: Doesn't that kill you? So when they explain to me, like, One gal grew up in Nigeria and didn't have shoes till she was twelve. I mean, I get all choked up, but she's telling me, like, the impact that that seven dollars could have, if it could make its way to Africa, it's staggering.

And so when I hear of a problem like that, I just that's what I I dig in. Like, We gotta solve that. So I reached out to Becky, and I said Becky and John, you know, bank social. I said, distributive ledger technology.

Can you crack this nut? She said absolutely, and we can do it for pennies.

So we are work actively working on looking at how we can get, like, one of the first DLT transactions to Nigeria to get money home for pennies rather than seven dollars per hundred. I mean, that one thing, and through this credit union, could literally save lives, if you think about it, it could literally save lives. And who doesn't wanna be part of that?

Right? So that's why a credit if anything you said about credit unions, that's what makes us different. We are not schlepping financials products and services.

We are changing lives, and we have from the very beginning.

We should be so proud of that.

Ben: Yeah. That was a mic drop moment. I feel like we could just end the episode right now.

Sue: There's more good stuff to come. We can't stop.

Ben: Yeah. Let's not do that.

Sue: So, Denise, But I I know I previewed this question to you before we started recording and then I got excited because you got excited to answer it. What would you say to the people who say, you know, we have handled this smaller credit union, quote unquote problem through merge before.

We, you know, that's that's how we deal with little credit unions.

We just eat them up. And that's all we have to do. What would you say to people who think that that is the way forward for small credit?

Denise: You know, I've talked to several credit union CEOs who have gone through a merger who have said if looking back, they wouldn't wish they wouldn't have done it, honest to god. Because one of the things that they realize is extremely expensive.

You have to buy out all the contracts. I mean, one credit union CEO said she spent twelve million dollars buying out contracts. If you do the math on I mean, that's where I just wonder, like, really, are we doing the math on this? And there's really no data out there that says, if you merge x x x, you're gonna get x return, right, or because of your growth.

Everybody just kinda glazes over. There's no real research on that. Right? And the other thing is when you when you buy an credit union, you don't necessarily you're not guaranteed those members.

Right? I mean, they can go anywhere.

And and I think having a growth strategy via merger, feels somewhat Oh, I don't wanna say really I don't wanna be mean about this, but it feels somewhat lazy. Organic growth is harder.

Right? You know what I mean? Organic growth is harder because organic growth means that you've got to differentiate yourself in your marketplace. Right?

Got a ton of competition, you you're not gonna, you know, you're not gonna grow as quickly. And, you know, there's another butterfly flaps its wings moment for for this story too. And that was HR eleven fifty one because when HR eleven fifty one and it was I mean, we had to fight it. We had to, you know, we had to do it.

But it really opened the door for community charter. And I saw many credit unions ditched there sponsor name, right, or get some generic name, get some territory, and thinking, this is great. You know, we're we're not gonna be bounded one group, we're gonna be lives works, workships, in eight counties. And as a marketer, I I watch that with horror because sitting in Seattle, Washington.

I lived there at the time, and I saw a bus, a bench, and I saw a billboard on the same street, like, city way. I remember. And it was one credit union said, now anyone can join, and on the bus bench was another credit union that says, now anyone can join. And it was this moment of, like, Oh, my gosh, we've lost our way because they're not saying why, and it's like, what do you do?

Right? And it's So the community charter also, the ripple effect of that, what's happened, the average age Credit member continues to go up and up and up. The average age right now is fifty three. The highest it's ever been in my, journey.

And the reason is and I just read a report last year, it's we've lost referral.

So if you think about affinity credit unions, you know, there's teachers, you know, union workers, railroad, airline, whatever, there was an affinity.

Members knew the day they joined the credit union. Why? Cause it was usually the first day of their new job. Right?

I've been a member since because I started that job, and that job came with this credit union membership. And then that was a family referral. Right? Dad was a teacher, dad was a truck driver, dad, whatever, or mom.

Sorry. I sound like from from the fifties. But anyway, there was a study that showed that something like, you know, eighty percent of parents don't refer financial institution anymore to their children. There's that affinity is gone.

It's got we've now been outside of HR eleven fifty one long enough that we have a whole generational cycle of a community charter credit union that is bringing in people whose only affinity is where they live. And and if you think about just from neighborhood to neighborhood to neighborhood in any big city, it's completely different. Right? And so that it's gone.

And so there's not that referral. And then the other data point in there was it young people don't listen to their parents anyway. Right? So but that makes sense why the average age continues to go up.

Right? And so we we've just absolutely got to fix that.

The merger, again, There are some credit unions that have to merge.

There are some that are, you know, I watch the merger reports like crazy. I break it down. I look at every single one. What is the reason?

You know, what's how many assets were they? What what name are we giving up? You know, Frank Deekman has done a really great job of telling the merger stories and kind of in an RIP way, kind of honoring the legacy of these eighty year old credit unions who are closing their doors. And it's, you know, it's really kinda sad, but you know what the number one reason for merger is?

Expanded services.

Number one, like, over sixty percent of mergers last year, the same reason expanded services. And guess what? The QSO model will fix that.

And that's what also why I look at the mergers and say, those aren't necessary.

They're not necessary. Expanded now a CEO, can't recruit a CEO, bad management, low capital. Like I said, you can't save them all. Those are gonna have to merge.

But it's a handful. It's not the majority. And a and as a strategy for growth, for growth's sake, I've always said this bigger isn't better. Bigger isn't better.

Right?

Better is better. And I've seen a lot of five, ten, fifteen million dollar credit unions. They're doing amazing things in their community.

Ben: Yeah. So educate me a little bit. Expanded services, but we're talking, being able to offer more or it's too taxing and they can't do it.

Denise: Yeah. Usually tied to their core. You know, they're literally held hostage by their core processor. And I've seen under the hood of some of these eighties legacy core processors, and and they can't.

I mean, they can't add digital services with that core. They can't they can't add any of those things. And so but, again, the CUSO model, this, like, revolution CUSO. If we get the best of the best, the CUSO of CUSOs would make it affordable because we get a lot of people on there then they can get that, you know, coveted economies of scale without merging.

Ben: Right.

Denise: And that's what they need because that's always been the excuse. Oh, you gotta you know, economies of scale. If you're not over five hundred, that's when it hits in over five hundred million.

That's math. That's an not a strategy.

Alright.

Ben: So, clearly some common challenges between some of these small credit unions. You mentioned a subset, maybe some that are, you know, held hostage based on, you know, some systems or core system or whatever it might be in in place that's just not allowing them to do the things that they need to do to continue to move forward and stay relevant to their membership. What other common needs do small credit unions have. Maybe maybe not even, one that tells a little doom and gloomy of these, this small subset that's, you know, in this really tough spot with the system that just can't be upgraded and they're pulled hostage by a contractor.

Denise: So the other thing that's happened, I wrote about this, in a CU Insight article earlier this year. I did a lot of research because I'm all about cause and effect, right, root cause, And, you know, what are what are what are those things? And the other thing that I uncovered is, it's getting harder and harder to recruit CEO's for smaller credit unions. And if you think about the number of credit unions in America now is under forty seven hundred.

Three thousand under two hundred and fifty million. And then there are only little not even five hundred that are over a billion. But that the that little group over a billion represent, like, seventy two percent of all the assets of freight unions. And that mirrors the wealth gap in America if you think about it.

Right? It very much mirrors the wealth gap. And what that has happened in the credit union system so then you think about state trade associations. Right?

Fewer and fewer credit unions are less than forty here in New Mexico, and the whole due structure has created kind of a wealth gap thing too. Right? The big, big, big credit unions pay incredible dues, the little ones don't. And so I I understand, you know, why the technology goes to that.

But the thing I was really shocked at was accused executive compensation salary survey that was published in twenty twenty two. The median compensation for a CEO, Clayton's CEO, and this is base plus bonus was over four hundred thousand dollars.

The median.

And so if you think about that, I mean, that's and it and it went up eighteen percent in one year was noted in that one survey. So the salaries have just gotten crazy. I don't encourage anybody a good living, but yowza. So then what that does is you've got the same kind of a wealth gap in salary We had a credit union CEO retire here after twenty five years, you know, rural New Mexico, making fifty thousand dollars a year. And, you know, fifty thousand dollars a year, for a for where they live in New Mexico, they you can live. Can you recruit with that?

Go. And so we find it's getting harder and harder. It used to be that a c suite at a, you know, five hundred plus million dollar credit union would would jump at the opportunity to manage a hundred million dollar credit union, but now they take a cut and pay. Right?

And so we're we're seeing that more and more. Getting harder and harder to recruit for small credit union CEOs. So my idea, because I don't just, like, I always think there's the problem. What are some solutions?

I reached out or actually, a DE, a recent DE, a credit union development educator, filled out the form of this CU De Novo collected volunteering that they wanted to help. And so I put I said to her, Hey, your credit and development educator, best class ever. Right?

On fire, young, young, amazing woman, who wants you know, Creetings are gonna be her career, but she's middle management. And I I challenged her. I said, I know the de is your your goal is that you continue to work on projects. Right?

And she actually has a team. I said, here's your team's challenge. She create a program like a peace corps or like a traveling nurse program. Where you have these young people go into a program, and they wanna become a CEO of a small credit union, and they agree to be deployed like, for a year or two to rural New Mexico and now, let's say a loan manager at a midsize gets to be the CEO of a fifty million dollar credit union in rural New Mexico.

They've now got that on their resume. They've got that skill set. There are solutions. Right?

And we have programs like the I3, the crashers, the DEs, CUNA management schools. We have all these programs that could be feeders to that kind of a solution if we had a coordinated effort. And that then could help kind of nurture these small credit unions and get them good leaders. It's a win win.

Right? They get good leadership. The same time they're grooming a future executive.

And, I've heard anecdotally, I I actually reached out to the Bailene galveston charge of crashes, which they wanna do some math on it because they've heard it too, that forty percent of the crashes leave, the movement. Because they get back to their credit unions. Many times it's big credit union. They see no upward mobility.

They're excited to do something with their career, and they end up leaving. The movement. And that's a shame. Right?

We should be we should be nurtured. We should have another path for them, and that's where we need it. Right? So if we could get that over there, it's all about keeps come back to that six cooperative principle.

Right? Cooperative among cooperatives. Do you know what the death of cooperation is, though?

One word, it begins with an e, and it ends with an o, ego.

Yeah. I've I've been involved with many start up CUSOs and many times you get to a point where someone in there's like, they just can't give up control.

Right? And ego is the enemy of, cooperation, unfortunately.

And it's hard. Starting well, you know, starting CUSOs, you know, It's not particularly easy, but it's important. And and what you do is important, and you are embracing that six cooperative principle.

I applaud you.

Ben: Yeah. Yeah. Plenty of challenge, baked into starting a CUSO, some that we've experienced sure some that I'm sure are coming, and we don't know about yet, but, we're excited to play our small role in being a part of the solution. Right?

Really, interesting idea about the traveling nurse, traveling leadership concept that's, you know, thinking, especially of people in that stage of their life, which isn't always necessarily associated with an age group. But, you know, people that can be a bit more mobile. Can, you know, move somewhere for a couple of years and be a part of the solution. And, I think I think we need to have court from filing on to, share a little bit about what's going on in her world and maybe, chat about this a little bit more because it's super interesting to me.

And I had the really fortunate an opportunity to, mentor a crash your group at the AAC back in twenty twenty. And, you know, like so many of those, opportunities you stay in touch with a lot of them or at least are watching them from afar, and I I will absolutely confirm that data that a lot of them have left their credit union. Now, fortunately, some of them have left and are now a part of, you know, a company that's a credit union partner or something like that. So there's still at least, you know, involved in that way, but I also I know of several that have just left the industry or left credit unions altogether.

So, and yeah, it's a it's a, of course, life happens and people have to do what's best for them, but it is a shame especially a moment to intervene that, you know, they brought to it, then we're a part of a program that just helps reinforce the importance of what we're doing. So Go. I'd love to see something like that. Take shape. Take shape.

Denise: I did talk to Courtney about it and and, Taylor. And they they were very piqued their interest. They were it wasn't too long ago that I talked to them about it. So we've got some implanting seeds, right, and some big some big bright minds out there. See what I did there.

Ben: I like that.

Denise: Right on brand.

Sue: Yep. Really good.

So okay. So we have we have covered, and we could go on for hours and hours and hours listening to you talk about small credit unions.

We so we've talked we've hit that. What are other things, Denise, before we wrap up? Since we are unbelievably already getting into the point we should talk about wrapping up. What are other things you're involved with you'd like people to get connected to or learn more about?

Denise: Well, we'd like to do a shameless plug for Zest AI and why I went to work there.

And I've I've told this story many, but I've it's my favorite story. I I began as a teller in a credit union, and then when I became a loan officer, it was in the eighties, and we had no FICO score. And so we did loans. We had a credit report, but there was no score tied to it. And when FICO came on the scene, I I was there actively watching, you know, people learn about it, embrace it, and I saw what it did. You know, I absolutely saw what it did. It became kind of a past film mentality.

I I saw we stopped talking to members. We stopped hearing their story.

A lot of folks, their boards were risk averse. They got addicted to a paper. Right? And a paper caters to the, you know, the old white guy with a twenty five year job with a gold watch when he retired. And and it is inherently biased, and we know that. The current credit scoring system that has thirty data points was written, like, in the fifties.

And at Zest, with machine learning and AI, we have hundreds of data points off the same trade report. Right? We use exactly the same Bureau data, but we look at it over time. The thing I hate because I I'm obsessed with my credit score.

I get on Credit Karma, and when it gives me alert, like, your credit scores change, and it never makes any sense. It went down sixteen points. Why? I paid off my mortgage.

Oh, that's penalized me for that. Right? I mean, go on.

But anyway, what it does is, you know, it takes a snap on a time, it says today, as you've seen it, you know, today, your credit card balance is higher than usual. So your score is going down. Well, it's Christmas.

Right? And so look you look at the zest one and we're letting yeah. That might be today for Denise, but what are the trends? Right? We're gonna look at hundreds of data points and say, what are the trends?

Also with AI and machine learning, we can score thin file, no file. And that's what that was another reason, the credit union, in my opinion, why the average age of credit members started to peak up because we were born with no credit score. Now they're born with a score of zero. Right?

A new person coming in is immediately penalized because they have not had the time. It's so ridiculous. Right? They have not had the time to establish a credit score.

And so a lot of credit and models said no. And that also comes back to, like, that community charter. They don't know this person, have no credit. They're not gonna take a risk.

Way back in the day, I remember when we made that kid's first car loan, that got so much loyalty.

Right? Cause dad brought in his son, and we gave him their very first car loan, and they were members for life. And we know it. Right? We had that. So I just saw that traditional credit scoring system became a real negative, and it and it zest, we are really the intersection of technology and purpose And and and I love and that's our mission, our values, the intersection of technology, and purpose. We have one of the hold one of the first patents for fair lending.

AI driven fair lendings, really a pioneer in the space, but also our culture, our leader, Mike Devere, they are all in on credit unions. Because of the mission and financial inclusion and loaning more to minority populations using our technology, not to mention automating it, making it more efficient, getting a member, an answer quicker because that's what they want, keeping those members. So I really I am philosophically aligned, you know, with SEDAI as well as having that experience, which I'm so that's why I'm so glad I'm the HIM, you know, because I have all this experience to draw upon wisdom. I'm not old. I'm wise.

Right. But having lived through all those things, I I have a different perspective on it. Right? And so it's just it's a really good company. We were all back in the Burbank office last week. They blew everybody back because two thirds of us are now working remote a wonderful gift because I gotta be with my dogs that I think you heard earlier.

But, yeah, it's just a really, really great company. So and and they are also a Qso, And they have over seventy credit union investors, and they are very committed to the credit union movement. So that's why I am at SDI.

Ben: Yeah. Amazing.

Sue: Yeah. That is fantastic. I you know what? I I love that you brought it up, that whole credit score thing.

Because I I do think there's definitely a huge chunk of the population that doesn't realize it is made up. It's made up.

We we picked data points as as I think you I think you said it, old white men picked edifies that they liked that made, you know, the people who were risk averse happy And, we did it to I shouldn't say we.

I had nothing to do with this. They did it. To, make more money, make make the whole process faster.

Denise: Mhmm.

And it really just just like so many things, that are created to make the world better we've we've managed to take that shortcut and cut people out of the benefit Yeah.

Sue: That that could have. So Yep. I love that discussion around, like, what what that credit means and Mhmm. How we should be. Yeah. And, you know, personally, my my first credit union experience, The FICO score existed when I started in the credit union, but I worked it was a two million dollar credit union.

So I worked for a I worked for credit union president who, like, Oh, I don't know. I I knew your dad in high school and I think, you know, you, you know, we're gonna do this loan because I know your family or I know the place, you know, I know your boss and I know he wouldn't hire, you know, someone I couldn't trust, like, he he had that, He had that philosophy.

Denise: He still used it. The character capacity collateral, we called it the three seats.

Sue: Yep. Right. And, I mean, to his credit, if if he made a bad decision on someone, if someone disappointed him, He didn't blame anyone else, and he went and collected on it.

Denise: Yeah.

Sue: I mean, and I know not everything can be as high touch as he was, but but it really does bring, you know, bring us back, you know, you you use the term sense. It brings us back to that time of, like, who is this person holistically?

Mhmm. What do what do we know? What can AI? How can we use AI for good.

Denise: Right. Yeah.

Sue: To understand them so that, they can get what they need. Yeah. And we, you know, maybe maybe we try- should say at credit unions don't have to rely on trying to build that kind of relationship that a CEO of a two million dollar credit union who knew everybody's dad.

Yeah.

Denise: Well, you know, that's how I looked at when I really got to see, like, under the hood of of our technology. And it did. That was one of the first things I said. I said, it's like going back to the three c's.

Character, you get the full picture. You can you get the story rather than, again, that snapshot in time. That is ridiculous. I mean, I look at it all the time.

It's just it's so flawed. It's and it it and the scary thing is I think ninety percent of decisions, whether or not you can get a cell phone, get a job, your insurance, you know, your mortgage all those things are tied to a score that we know is is old, right, and it's not, and it's not fair. And so, how can you not get behind that? Right?

I just I get super excited about not only what they do, but it's it's a really good company, good people, and a good culture.

Sue: Yeah. Yeah.

BEn: Well, as Sue said, we could probably talk to you about pick a topic from today. We could talk about any of them for hours. We do need to wrap. So I'm gonna keep us moving here.

Okay. We'll roll into our something awesome segment where we share recommendations for awesome things, things that are great that we've heard, that we've experienced, And, I'm gonna kick it off with a link that will share. Oh, wait. I'm out.

I'm out. I'm out. I need to back us up because We talked a little bit about the, CU De Novo collective. And Denise, maybe you can just give us the thirty second elevator pitch.

What is it? We'll share a link out to it, but what do people need to know about what they do?

Denise: Yeah. So it's CU De Novo collective, and it's c u de novo collective dot org is the website. It is a a group of volunteers, which is super important. Group of volunteers, it's grassroots movement, and where we have a place a gathering place or website where we are helping to start new credit unions and save small credit unions through a variety of in initiatives.

We also applied for five zero one c three and got approved, and we have a foundation. That we're launching the first quarter of this year. So we'll look for a fundraising, effort to go out for grant programs. Again, grants to help start new credit unions and grants to help, save small credit unions.

And we love it because no one's paid. You know, it's volunteer grassroots, which is how credit unions began in America in the first place. A big shout out to see you ideas and Brian Rainer.

When you see the website, it's very well done, and they donated their talent in their time to give us a really nice presence and a very powerful website. So gotta give a shout out to them.

Ben: Yeah. No. That's great. Awesome. I'm glad I made the brief amount of time for that.

We will definitely share out some information and, hopefully that's something that has continues to gain some traction and more awareness. We can share more about that. Maybe another episode or something. We'll see. But we'll use that awesome thing as, now the segue to our something awesome segment. I'll get your top.

We're gonna share a link from wired dot com. I'm a little bit of a, like, technology geek. I have, like, all the toys and all that stuff. It's it's kind of like an addiction.

It's, not healthy. I fully recognize that, but, I like to check out what's come out of CES every year. And so the link that we're sharing is from wired. That's kinda like the best of CES.

At least according to wired, there's so much cool stuff that, is happening in the realm of technology, and of course, with like artificial intelligence, autonomous vehicles, flying vehicles, which if you check out the link, you'll see about something, cool that Hyundai is developing.

Basically a flying vehicle that makes about as much sound as a dishwasher kind of mind boggling to me.

But The Jetsons I know.

Denise: Right? Yeah. It's like finally the Jetson's world is here.

Ben: Yeah, without geeking out too much and getting into some of the specifics in that article, check out the link. They're just you know, the rate of technology changing and how it impacts our lives is just always growing and, getting faster and faster and just some really cool things. And Some of it maybe is, you know, a bit creaky, creepy or, you know, tough to wrap your mind around it. But I think a lot of it is rooted and good. We'll make our lives easier and give us more time to do the important stuff that we do at work or at home.

So to me, that kind of technology is always, just helping to advance the world with some exceptions, I'm sure, but, cool stuff in in the link. So check it out.

Denise: Am I supposed to share something awesome?

Ben: Yep.

Okay. I gotta share. I had never heard of this show on Netflix, and I heard it won all these awards, and it's called Beef, Beef, as in, like, like, steak, like, Beef. One word.

Never heard of it. And so I thought, well, I'll go check it out. Last week, when I was traveling, I thought I'll check it out. And it's a what what they call one is limited series.

So it's, I think, ten episodes, thirty minutes each. I've never seen a show, like, it it does not follow any kind of formula It is not predictable at all.

The acting is amazing.

There's they deal with all kinds of subjects even religion, which I I like, there's actually kind of a religious truly come to Jesus moment in it, which I think American needs more conscience, you know, their actions and consequences.

And it's definitely baked into this. I've watched it the entire thing twice already, And I watched the final episode a third time because I I love it when things aren't really tidy because life isn't tidy. You know, I like kind of the reality of it, and I cannot recommend I I'm so excited about the show. And I I've I've, like, I like to watch a lot of movies and you know, interesting things. But this was, again, the acting was amazing.

There's nothing out there like it. Because so many shows anymore or movies, especially. They kind of follow the same basic story line, you know, like, oh, this is kinda like that or whatever. Plus, I only knew a couple of the actors in it which is also kind of fun because then you don't relate them to any other character. You know, you're you're meeting them, like, for the first time. Beef, Netflix, Yes. Highly recommends awesome.

:Ben Got it.

Okay. So I'm gonna I'm gonna close it out and I'm feeling really good right now because I think I am I am combining Ben's nerdiness with Denise's viewing recommendation, and I think this is the sweet spot for me. So we have been watching Echo on Disney Plus. Echo is a Marvel character, speaking of nerdy that is, like, my my husband and I, do the marvel thing.

And it is, first of all, it is excellent. It is great representation.

It is If you don't know, Echo is a sort of a anti hero, but she is deaf and she's an amputee.

Denise: Wow.

And she is, phenomenal.

And she- it is like action packed. And the, the actress that plays Maya Lopez is the character's name or Echo. Her name is Alaqua Cox, and she's actually a member of the Monominee tribe from Kenosha Wisconsin.

What? Which I think is Like that Yeah.

That's everything right there.

There's a little pride that she's from Wisconsin.

Yes. Even though I should not, but she's an amazing actress.

The character is an amputee. She is an amputee.

And she does some of her own stunts.

It is it's fantastic to watch.

And also it has the additional benefit of having my one of my husband's favorite characters, which is Kingpin.

So Ping Pin is just fun to watch too. And, that is my recommendation.

Watch Echo but don't watch it too fast because I we haven't gotten to the end of it yet, and I do not want spoliers in this show.

Yes. And that's Right.

So we have echo and beef.

Denise: It's Echo- Echo Beef and, you're flying Hyundai car. Right?

Ben: Yeah. Right. Yeah. So flying my flying Hyundai car with my iPad. I don't know. Somewhere tropical.

It's really cold here today. I'm gonna watch Echo and Beef on the way.

Denise: And Beef. And I will say the then this is not a spoil alert, but because it's right in the very, very beginning of the show, but it is about it begins with road rage.

Ben: Love it.

Denise: I see. Yes. Yeah. So then you're there's your car, beef.

Perfect. It's all connected. It's all connected. We were gonna make it connected.

Sue: This is this is the definition of synergy. Right?

We're synergizing right now. These marketers.

Well, Denise As always, an absolute delight to have you. Thank you so much for being with us.

Denise: Oh, thank you for asking excited when I got asked that we were able to get this on the calendar before I leave again. So Yeah.

Before you go to Cancun, I I don't know if you know this. Thirty five degrees below zero where we are right now.

Denise: And you know, my friend, I'm going with three friends that live in Seattle, Portland area, and you've seen been going on over there. They have that ice storm and and so they're yeah. It yeah. Hochi, like, it's it's cold, but not by cat.

Ben: That's nuts. Yeah. That hurts. That cold hurts. Yeah.

Sue: If you have to just get one or two people out of the cold at a time and get them to cancun, Denise, gonna put you on right now.

Denise: I gotta take one for the team. Yep. Yeah. Portland It'd be funny.

Sue: Well, I'd thank you listeners who can always catch up, with our other episodes. You can go back and listen to Denise's episode from August.

It was our live episode. And if I had been prepared for this, I would be able to tell you the name.

It is humanizing your brand live?

I think that was it.

Ben: Maybe. It was fun. It was fun.

Yeah. Go back. August of this year.

Ben: And why don't we just share the link in with the show notes here.

Sue: Listen to that one. Listen to other podcasts. You can always catch up on your favorite podcast app. Or you can find those at our blog at exclamation q so dot com slash blog.

Ben: Thanks again, Denise. Thanks to Thank you, listener, for tuning in. Be awesome. See you next time.

Sue: The Awsomology podcast is a production of Exclamation services. Thanks to Nick Mulovrh for sound production and Kylie Ganther for her cover artwork.

Ben: Executive producers are me, Ben Baeur, and my friend, Suzanne Campbell.