Zach Zellner, from Coach to Counselor

Hello and welcome fellow Awsomologists to Awsomology. I’m Sue.

And I’m Ben. And in this episode, we’re sitting down with my good friend, Zach Zellner, outdoor therapist and cofounder of LiveLife Leadership.

Thanks, Zach, for being here. So happy to have you.

Yeah. Thanks for having me, guys. I appreciate it.

Well, it’s so nice to meet you. I am excited because you and Ben are friends already. I get to be the person that asks you all of the questions that he already knows the answers to. That’s my job here.

So I what I think we should start with, the thing I am most interested in, is how someone goes from coaching to mental health counseling and your journey to get where you are today.

So tell us give us the timeline, friend. How tell us about you and about your journey to where you are right now.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. That’s, it’s been quite a journey.

You know?

So it really, we’re gonna go we’re gonna go pretty far back. So all the way back in, like, seventh or eighth grade, actually, was, that’s when I got, like, introduced to the idea of, like, goal setting and and self improvement and leadership through through a summer camp that I attended, and I just continued to attend that all the way through high school. And and then also in that time, was really active in sports, so wrestling and cross country and track. And so self improvement and motivation, that’s always been, like, at the forefront of my mind.

So I kinda just followed that, and I was a terrible high school student.

And so my dreams of being a big division one runner came to a screeching halt as soon as I graduated. And so I ended up going to a a a two year school, UW Manitowoc, and tried it out there. Academics still weren’t my thing. I couldn’t quite grasp what was going on.

It I really struggled with being able to focus, being able to get stuff done. And so I actually got into sales, and I was a high end kitchen cutlery salesperson for a while. Oh, k.

And, you know, from there, I I was able to start working with people as a sales manager. And what I found was I didn’t really like sales, and I I really didn’t enjoy, like, the marketing aspect. What I did enjoy, though, was the one on ones that I would have with the salespeople where we would make their schedules. We’d talk about, like, what is it that actually excites you? Like, why are you doing this?

And from there, all of a sudden, it just started to click. I’m like, you know what? There’s another job where you get to do that, and, like, that’s what you do. And so from that point, like, I really I I really got into psychology and really just leaned into it.

And in the meantime, yeah, I was a cross country and track coach, and that was, you know, that was feeling that that desire to help people perform their best, and I love the sport and wanted to give back.

You know? And then outside of that, I mean, all all of the different jobs that I had as, like, a barista and a bartender and stuff, that all just played a role into finally here I am now working with people sometimes, you know, at their lowest. And other times, actually, they’re at, like, their highest, and they’re, like, trying to figure out what’s next or why doesn’t it feel like I thought it was gonna feel. So that’s a that’s kind of a synopsis of of my journey. There’s there’s also, you know, working with Ben at a at a leadership camp as well for a period of time, which man, let me tell you, those those one on one conversations with Ben, if you get to have one of those, make sure you have one.

So Yeah.

We may have lost, just a couple of hours of sleep over the years Mhmm. Caught up in conversation.

Reinvested time.

When yeah. There you go. Right. Yeah.

Right. Well, speaking speaking as somebody who gets to have maybe more of those conversations with Ben than Ben is strictly happy with, I can I will cosign on what you’re saying, Zach? Yeah.

What a guy. Great conversations with this guy.

You guys are sweet.

Okay.

Zach, I gotta I gotta kinda, like, rewind a little bit because I’m still, like, a bit kind of, like, enamored with the shift from, you know, where you and, I mean, you know, part of it, I think, is just, like, age and college and, like, just a lot of the figuring out that happens in that period of one’s life. But, I mean, still quite the shift from what you had going on to, like, alright. Let’s just do, like, psychology and leadership coaching and things like that now. Like Mhmm.

Can do you recall I mean, you know, it sounds like you had things like cross country and track and things that you were passionate about that kept you connected to those fields, I suppose. But, can you recall, like, a moment or an experience that you’re like, oh, dang. Yeah. This is it.

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

I I don’t and I don’t know how I skipped over this. The brain is funny.

So in that time period where I was a high end kitchen cutlery salesperson, That’s actually where LiveLife started as well.

And LiveLife was is, like, my meaning making project.

So I lost a friend to to suicide, and part of the grief process for me really ended up being how can I, help the people around me live?

So live, actually stands for love, inspire, value, and empower. And that’s that’s my hope that when I come in contact with people that that, yeah, they leave feeling loved, and inspired. I’m adding value to their life, and I’m empowering them to really live life the way that that they see fit.

Because, yeah, I’m giving them helping them see that they have the authority, to live their life.

And so with that, we were just, it was me and my buddy, Jake, who were working on it, and we started off as the live life project. We were just a little blog, and I was just throwing out some ideas and did some did some, like, keynotes and some, like, breakout sessions, stuff like that. And, yeah, I was I was working up in Rhinelander as a branch manager for for this marketing firm, and I it was awful, for me. The the company was great.

Right? Right? Like, people have been super successful with with them, and I was not one of those people. And it was, you know, there was just a lot of lack of action on my part.

But I I recall having this awful, awful interview with a person, and I was just like it was that moment where you just had in your hands, like, what in the world am I actually doing? Like, I hate this. And, you know, I just I really, I was like, god. I I really don’t know what the hell to do here.

And and then a couple days later, I was like, dude, you need to get back to live. Like, that’s what that’s what drives you. That’s what’s exciting for you.

And that’s what, like, that’s what, like, hits deep. Right? So so yeah. So then I ended up going back to UW Manitowoc to, to finish my schooling career.

I didn’t, though.

But I I did, and I didn’t know this at the time, but I did end up meeting my now wife.

So but that’s a whole another story. We don’t have enough time for that story. But, yeah. So, so that’s actually how Liv was born. That’s that’s how I got into the field of psychology because, you know, I figured if I was gonna be speaking on this subject, I I really should be.

I wanted it to be more than a feel good message or you know, like, the the message was and, eventually, like, I got to this point where it’s like, alright. The message is pretty fluffy, and it’s it’s not there’s not action happening, which is why I ended up going, back for, like, my master’s in counseling and everything. So Yeah. Yeah. Cool.

Did I clear it up then?

Perfectly. I love it.

Good. I I do wanna revisit one other thing that you said, kind of like that moment for some people where they reach a milestone, achieve something, whatever, and and they kinda have that feeling of, wait.

I thought it was gonna be cooler than this or, you know, or the immediate, like, what’s next and that sort of thing. Can you what what do you what do you do? What do you tell someone in that scenario that’s dealing with, like, that conflict?

And I don’t know I don’t know what you can share. And, of course, client confidentiality, I’m sure, is Yep. Super important. But, like Yes. Absolutely. Do you have a story you can share?

So, I mean, I would say that each of us probably knows that feeling. Right? Like, one way or another, we’ve always thought that something was gonna be so much cooler than what it was. Or, you know, I think a lot of times what happens and the like, when I’m the reason why I love hiking so, actually, this is I think this is how I’ll go about it. So the reason why I love hiking, especially for something like this, is because I’ll take somebody who is very destination focused, and then I’ll I will purposely make the pace slow.

And we will, like, look at stuff. And and I’m not, like, I’m not the guy who can name every plant in the woods, so I’m not trying to do that. Right? But the idea is let’s slow down, and it’s cliche, but enjoy that journey, because we do.

We get so destination focused that we we summit, and then we look, and we’re like, shoot. That’s a bigger mountain, and I think I see people on that one. That means I gotta go for that one now. And we don’t take time, one, to even enjoy the where we are.

And then the other thing is we really through that whole time of working towards that destination, we really build up and hype up how great it’s gonna be. Everyone’s gonna be so proud of us.

Everyone’s gonna want you know, they’re gonna things the whole thing is gonna change for me. All life is gonna change.

The change in life, that shift, that transformation happens on the journey, not at the destination.

And so I really when I’m working with people, I’m really trying to get them to think of, like, what are you enjoying about getting here? What are the like, how are you gonna get yourself to enjoy the the boring aspects of this?

Because that if you can get yourself to enjoy boring, then, like, you’re golden. That’s huge. To be able to to sit in boredom is actually one of the ways that you can get into flow state, which is a whole another awesome topic. But Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alright. Shout out to a sorry. Go ahead.

As long as we are circling back around, something I heard as you’re introducing yourself was when you were talking about the fact that you struggled in school. And, because I notoriously do all sorts of, online stalking of our light online stalking of our guests. I, of course, have been on your LinkedIn, been on your website.

Mhmm.

And I noticed that one of the things you offer is, is support for adults with ADHD.

Now Yes.

Here’s the here’s my backstory. I have two sons, who were both diagnosed as kids with d ADHD. My two sons have two different fathers.

So if we if we accept the idea that ADHD can have a genetic link, I am the genetic, I am the genetic link for these two guys.

And as I watched them grow up, what I realized, even though I was never diagnosed as a kid, was that my thinking is much more similar to the way they think and the way that they go through life than my husband’s.

Mhmm.

And I you know, the three of us are terrifically nonlinear.

He and my other child are you know, you can see that more linear thought and that ability to maintain focus that you know, and just some of the things that would tell me that they’re on a different journey than us. So Sure. That is what triggered me when you said you didn’t you struggled in school because I’m I’m certain that is why I struggled in school. Mhmm.

Yeah.

Absolutely. So I I ended up being diagnosed with ADHD my junior year of high school.

So when you talk about that that struggle in school, yeah, it’s it’s there. And then when you talk about not being diagnosed with it and just kinda living with, that maybe I am, maybe I’m not.

And then and then you see you see your children growing up with, you know, being diagnosed with it. You’re like, oh, okay.

Maybe I really, maybe I am. So now what do I even do with that? Like and and so, I mean, there are a lot of adults who they just they weren’t diagnosed with it.

Whether it was because people weren’t looking for it. I mean, there’s obviously that whole, like, generation where you just you didn’t go and see somebody. Right?

And the and even if you were diagnosed, there’s still schools are trying their best. Absolutely.

And yet there’s there’s still limits to Mhmm. Within the classroom. Right? And so it’s it’s tough.

And and so, like, I would say that anybody who if if you have members in your family that are diagnosed with ADHD, like, I think it’s worth going to going to somebody and actually going through an assessment and just getting that answer.

Even just having the answer sometimes is is liberating within itself. Sure.

So Yeah. Yeah.

And is it it it’s accurate to say too that it it is more I don’t know if it’s more difficult or just less diagnosed in females, in girls. I I think it you know, when I was coming up as a kid, it probably was going undiagnosed.

Sure. All kids. But Sure. I think that was that was still at a time where they sort of thought girls couldn’t have ADHD. Yeah.

You know? And then we get now we get into, like, how everybody presents differently with ADHD. And really, like, ADHD itself, that name is, it doesn’t do the diagnosis justice. It doesn’t explain what’s actually happening.

You know, the whole attention deficit hyperactivity, disorder, that’s that’s just such surface level stuff right there. Like, if you if you check out the top experts in the field right now, they would tell you that if they could, they would rename it.

And they would name it so that it it really pointed to the fact that this is an executive function disorder. So, like, executive functioning being those higher level thinking processes.

And so, like, what we see with with kids is they can mask really well. So, like and and I would say that girls definitely have more pressure when they’re younger and onward, but, like, to be good.

Right? To, like, really be good. Boys will be boys, we say. And they’re gonna run around, and they’re gonna climb on everything, but but girls?

Girls don’t do that, which is not true. Girls can. They can climb on everything. They can, they can play with the tractor, all that stuff.

Right?

But so then what you see is, sure, that they’re gonna mask that because they’re gonna really work a lot to to be able to sit and study and be good as a student or as good as they can. So yeah.

Yeah. Well, thank thank you for going on my divergence there.

No. That was great.

Expect more, Zach.

Game on. Yeah. Let’s do it.

So you mentioned hiking before.

And part of the reason I mean, besides you being a good friend that I wanted to talk with you today is because as far as I know, this is relatively new work for you, kinda like doing some of this therapy in nature and stuff. And I say all of this not quite having a crystal clear picture of what you’re doing on the day to day or how this Sure. Fits with what you’re doing. But, for some people, that connection between, like, physical, and mental health and the performance of those two of those things together may not be super obvious. So Thank you. What told you that, like, this physical aspect, this natural aspect to the work you’re doing could help you build what you’re what you’re doing now and what you’re hoping to do in the future?

Yeah. So, anytime that this actually goes, again, way back all back into high school even.

Anytime that I was struggling as a as an athlete, so, like, with my running and stuff, I always ended up at UWGB, and I would run their trails there.

And there was a a spot that you would come to. You’d go off trail, and then it comes out to the bay, and nobody was ever there. And, like, that’s where I would have, like, my my, like, real talk with myself type thing. And and then when, you know, I started doing therapy, a lot of my work is up in Door County, and that is just like there are so many great trails.

And so, you know, I’d take my clients for hikes, and then one day, was like, you know, if I could just do this, if I could just lead hikes or, like, outdoor retreats and stuff, that would just be golden.

So I hopped on to good old Google and found the Center for Nature Informed Therapy training, and I was like, alright. I’m going to Maryland, I guess.

So so, yeah, I signed up, and then, it was one of those, beg for forgiveness type things, with Amber. Because I was like, yeah. I’m heading out for a for a week long training in Maryland in, September. So Yeah.

Yep. But it’s it is. And it’s more than just the hiking piece. There’s, you know, there’s something very, very therapeutic about being able to to sit by a creek or sit by the, by the lake, listen to the waves.

There’s a lot of acceptance that comes with nature.

You know, I always tell my younger clients who are dealing with, you know, like, getting picked at that when we’re hiking and deer flies are bouncing off their heads, I always remind them, like, man, if you can deal with deer flies bouncing off your head while hiking, you can deal with anything. Yeah. Like, you can keep it together as those things are bouncing off your head, man, you got some serious self control. So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool.

So as long as we’re talking about some of the stuff you’re doing, another thing I saw on your website was I don’t wanna get it wrong. Brain spotting? What is it? Tell me about it.

Yep. Brain spotting. So brain spotting is, it’s a form of therapy, that so it’s it’s a form of, I’m gonna say trauma therapy. It can be used for more than just trauma, but it is it it’s based off the premise or the idea that where you look impacts how you feel.

And so what what, what I’ll do in a brain spotting session is I’ll have a client, you know, choose an issue that they wanna work on. So they might be really specific about the issue. They might just have this general thing going on. Right?

And from there, as they’re describing it, you know, I’ll ask them just to bring awareness to their body and just notice, alright. What are you feeling in your body? Like, where are you feeling this the most? And from there, then we’ll find an eye position.

And what’s really cool is that’ll all link up, and then we’ll sit with that. And, you know, some sessions are really quiet, actually, and we just sit and stare. And the idea is that I’m holding space for them, and we have these brain cells called mirror neurons.

And that is why there’s that mirror principle where if, like, I shift this way, people shift that way, you know, type thing.

That’s your mirror neurons working.

It also helps with healing, And so there’s this thing called attunement and, co regulation. So it it keeps people as they’re working through trauma and their emotions, it keeps them feeling safe. Because that’s one of the biggest things that happens with trauma is they were in this this time in their life where they didn’t feel safe, obviously, and they felt hopeless and alone, and their pain wasn’t witnessed. And that’s I mean, and that’s a very, probably minimized way to even say it, but that’s kind of the gist of it. And so now in Brainspotting, I’m witnessing that and allowing them a safe space to finally release it. And so we say it’s a bottom up therapy approach. So talk therapy is gonna be top down or coming from the brain down.

Bottom up or coming from the body up through the brain stem into a part of the brain that’s holding the memories and the emotions. So it’s it’s very powerful.

You know, I I use it with a lot of, like, police officers and veterans. And the my favorite thing to hear from people is I was able to sleep.

Dang.

Yeah. That’s pretty awesome. Yeah.

So with such unique therapies that you’re offering Mhmm.

How how do you put this together as a business and explain that value proposition to people who are used to, well, you know, no. If if we’re gonna do therapy, I should come you should sit in an office, and I’ll lay on a couch.

And that’s how that’s what therapy is, and don’t rock the boat, Zach.

Well, so, thankfully, thankfully, early on in my, in my schooling, so, like, my practicum and internships, I I got hooked up with people who rock the boat, who who are really informed, in those types of therapies, who now, like, kinda help out. So the way that that I operate right now is that I actually have two con I actually only have two contracts, really. One is with with an agency called Oak Ridge who they are doing they’re actually going out and getting clients for me. K? And then so they take care of that marketing piece.

Or, like, the big marketing piece. They take care of the billing, stuff like that. So, like, when they’re coming in for me, like, they already know what like, the clients already kinda have an idea of what they’re getting into.

And then the other contract is with a nonprofit called the wellness command post. And same thing. Like, the that so the wellness command post works with veterans, police officers, first responders, and their families just offering, you know, low cost of free mental health services as well as, like, archery group, which I which I work with, and an art group, and then some retreats and stuff. So we’re we’re actually in these retreats, we’re actually introducing them to, you know, stuff like brain spotting, nature therapy so that when they’re coming into session, they have an idea of what it what it is. So right now, it hasn’t been too hard to to convince people.

But even so, like, I have a psychology today profile, and I’ll have people that will reach out to me and say, yeah. I wanna do brain spotting.

Thankfully, you know, Google and YouTube are can be really good tools. So people people research a lot more now when they come in, which is a double edged sword because if their research is a social media site, then, right, like, some some of that content’s pretty good. Some of that stuff, it’s there. We’re gonna have to do some some education, and we’re gonna talk about why it’s part truth, part misnomer. So Yeah.

Yeah.

So let’s I I need a bit of advice here.

Oh, For prospective clients Mhmm. What are some of the signs that someone might see or things they might feel that would make them a good candidate to reach out to you?

Yeah. That that’s a wonderful question. So, you know, I would say if you are walking around and you’re finding that you just feel like your your chest or your shoulders are always weighted down, Probably probably a good time to reach out.

If you are in a situation and you walk away from that situation, you’re like, I have no freaking clue why I re why I reacted that way. Like, that that’s not who I am. Why why did it do that? And that’s lingering with you. Like, absolutely. You know?

Come on in.

And, again, saying you know, going back to things are really good, and I don’t know why I’m I can’t accept that they’re good.

You know? Because then we can get into so, like, we can do trauma work. We can do we can do some mindfulness stuff and gratitude, like, all that, you know, stuff that I know some of those words have lost their weight Yeah. Recently, which, which really it actually sucks because mindfulness and gratitude are are super powerful tools in perspective changing.

And and so it’s I’m trying to kinda, like, reclaim them back and give them their power back, you know, in my own way. But so I always love it when the tough guys come in because then, you know, when I finally get them using, like, gratitude, you know, like, the words and stuff, it’s like, alright. Cool. We we got this.

You know? But, yeah, I would say that for you know, even if it’s just, like, some really easy signs. Alright. If you get home and the first thing you do is grab a beer alright.

I know we’re in Wisconsin and everything, but, really, if the first thing is you’re, like, driving home, you’re like, man, I can’t wait to get home and grab that crack open that first beer, That’s a problem. Right? That’s that’s called self medicating. That’s not Yeah.

That’s not like a I enjoy the taste of this, so I’m going to have one. That’s I right now, the only way my my brain knows how to cope with what’s going on is the Medicaid.

So That’s so interesting. Yes just yesterday, I was I’m I’m a volunteer for NAMI in our area. Okay. And I was on I was on a webinar, and they were they were showing a chart, like, the stress level chart, so national stress levels and the state.

And they were talking about, you know, you can see here’s March twenty twenty. You can see the spikes. And, you know, it this data end it that data ended in the end of twenty twenty four, I think. And you can see, like, here’s the whole country, and here’s Wisconsin.

It’s pretty pretty much following along. You know? And you see right there at the end where, you know, it’s sort of at the end of twenty twenty four, it’s, you know, coming down to what you’re going to assume in normal levels. But, if you look at this yellow line, which is an inch below where all of those spikes are, that’s a normal and healthy stress level.

So we peaked. Everyone peaked. And we sort of all followed a different the same track in different ways with different kinds of trauma and stress. And Yeah.

As of at least a year ago, we we hadn’t come down, and we were still all at this high level. And then the conversation turned to, so what do people do, especially in Wisconsin? And, you know, unfortunately, we got to see one of those, you know, really neat graphics that showed binge drinking in the state and Yep. How Wisconsin was on that one, it was very high.

It was dark blue, and Wisconsin was awash in the highest levels of binge drinking.

Yeah.

Yeah. And, you know, it’s it really is built into our culture, What is exciting, I’ll say, is that in meeting with people, there is, like, this desire to get it out of our culture. Mhmm. And and so that’s actually really exciting to hear people talking about.

And then I’ve also I have to look more into it. So but I have seen, like, some reports that the younger generations, they’re actually they’re they’re slowing down with the with the drinking, which then, you know, right away, the the comeback to that is, well, there’s a there’s a different substance now that’s available. But at the same time, okay. So we’re we’re at we’re bringing something down, though, and alcohol has been a a real issue around, you know, with Wisconsin, and it it really does, like, ruin families and stuff.

Right? Ruin lives. So, yeah, when when somebody is saying to me that the first thing they do is they crack open that that beer and, you know, I say, well, you know, why wouldn’t you go for a hike, or why wouldn’t you do a hobby? And they come back with, well, I don’t have time.

You know, then we can get into, well, did you only have one beer? And then we get into, like, the whole, oh, no. I had a few more. How long did that take?

Right? And we never wanna attack, obviously, because then it we, you know, we dig our in our heels when we feel our values attack. But, yeah, it’s it’s a shift that is definitely overdue. So Mhmm.

Yeah.

Alright. So for before I move on, I gotta just say, back to your notes about mindfulness and gratitude and how they’ve, you know, kind of taken a bit of a hit as far as their relevance or meaning.

We see a similar thing in our field with words like strategy. You know? And Oh, sure.

You know, somebody’s got a plan with a bunch of checkboxes in it, and they say they have a strategy. And it’s like like, no. You don’t even we could digress on that for a little bit, but I’m not gonna do it. But it’s just you know? Yeah.

I think for people that maybe are of the marketing mindset listening to this and, you know, wondering why we’re talking about gratitude and mindfulness, like, there are there are connections to these things that people latch onto because they become buzzwordy. They become a bit cliche. And then people that are leading this kind of work or doing this kind of work that shouldn’t be or or at least, like, shouldn’t be yet. You know? Maybe they want to. They have high energy and motivation to be, like, leading strategic planning sessions or to be leading gratitude retreats or whatever it might be called.

You know? Right.

You know, it’s it’s a bit dangerous to how that might affect, like, industries and, and people’s lives and businesses and stuff because you’re, you know, not giving the best advice or, you know, kinda like lipstick on a pig sort of situation with some work. So it’s interesting.

Yeah. Well, I mean, we take the meaning away from a word, like, then it’s when you name it, it it doesn’t have the same power. Or, like, when I have somebody come in, and I’ll I’ll call out trauma. Like, no.

You know, it’s not trauma because don’t I just I don’t like that word. It doesn’t mean anything. I’m like, no. It means a lot.

Yeah. It means a lot, and you you can’t just let it not mean something. Mhmm.

So yeah. No. It’s it’s really important that we are are careful of how we choose our words. And Yeah.

So Yeah. Words matter.

They do.

So some more advice for our budding entrepreneurs out there. How should they approach bringing a unique or maybe even untried, service to life?

Yeah. So one, you know, get the basics down.

Right? Like, make sure that you got that foundation piece.

Really surround yourself with a good support.

Right? So I was pretty lucky. Again, like, the people that I was able to surround myself with, Get get your training in. Like, take care of that stuff. And then when you’re finally ready, like, take the shot.

Yeah. You know, you’ve done everything.

You prepared. Like, go for it and be ready to fail and try again.

Like, I mean, really, you know, we we are just bombarded with these new with, like, stories of new entrepreneurs who they nail it the first time. Well, one, we don’t see the what they’ve done in the background.

And, you know, like, it’s failure is is a very positive thing because there’s a lot of things to learn from it, obviously.

And it it if you go into it with a growth mindset, so I failed and that means that I’m step closer, right, we can you can pick yourself up from that, but we can’t fear failure.

Right.

I had to write down that quote.

That’s right. You lost me for just a hot second because I had to write that down.

I said something quotable. Wow.

You’re very quotable, Zach. You’re quotable today.

And so quotable, in fact, that it makes me sad to think that we are actually coming up to the end of our time. So but before we get to the end of our time and we get to the transitional part where we talk about something awesome, how can people learn more about you, or what would you like to draw people’s attention to so we can make sure we share that?

Sure. Absolutely.

So you can reach me through my website, and you can also reach me through I am on, like, psychology today. I do have a profile on there.

And then also, you know, through my Facebook or I really don’t use my Instagram, so don’t don’t do that.

But link and then my LinkedIn. So and then yeah. That’d be K. The best. And it’s still something I’m that I’m perfecting.

Right? Like that that piece. So Mhmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it takes time. And, with a couple of healthy contracts giving you work, you know, that’s some of that stuff might just have to sit in the background for a while, but that’s okay.

Mhmm.

Okay.

Well, this has been awesome, but we do have to transition to our something awesome segment. Like, we transition and close every episode with. So, this is where we share recommendations for cool things that we’ve experienced, good books we’ve read, good podcasts, whatever.

Zach, I kinda wanna say you’re off the hook, and everything that you shared in this discussion is something awesome. But if you have something, you can share it.

I’ll kick it off as I always do, and I’m just gonna say this might, date this episode a bit, but I’m cool with it. We just got back from a little excursion to visit some friends in Omaha for the fourth of July.

And I I don’t have anything super specific to share. Maybe I’ll say, like, a plug for the Omaha Zoo. It is actually for three years in a row now, the, rated the best zoo in the country, which might surprise some folks because a lot of people think it’s San Diego, which is an awesome zoo as well. But if you got kids, if you like animals, if you like zoos, the Omaha Zoo is legit. It is awesome. Get it on your list.

So with us going there as a family and with we kinda went with several other families to visit some family friends that lived down there.

Eight parents, I don’t even know, fifteen kids, sixteen kids, something like that. It was a it was a little bit of a nuthouse, but we so much fun, not only at the zoo, but just, like, downtown Omaha. Like, awesome food and, like, family stuff to do, like, all right there, super walkable and really family friendly and stuff. So just just an awesome time, the stuff to do in Omaha.

But, personally, just a really awesome trip for our family to be with friends and have our kids be with kids that you know, some of them, they knew each other. Others, it was kind the first or second time seeing them. So lots of the kiddos made fast friends and had lots of fun along the way and just one of the best parts of being a parent. And Zach is a fresh parent.

You’re gonna get to experience all this stuff. Like, there’s just something really special about, like, seeing your little interact with another little and almost, like, feel the connection with them. You know? Like, oh, you’re like me, or you’re different than me, and and that’s cool.

Like, tell me more. And I just like seeing all that stuff, experiencing that stuff is just super cool. And to do it around a holiday and poolside and with fireworks and all that stuff just made it that much more magical. Last thing I’ll say, this I just remembered this.

So Omaha has, like, very loose or maybe I should say no fireworks regulations.

So for, like, ten days leading up to the fourth, which we were there for part of that, It’s, like, all the time, all over the city, including during the day, which we couldn’t figure out the whole time. Like, why are people lighting off fireworks right now? Like, how can I see that? But we went out to eat one night at this cool spot that had games and things like that.

And we came out and, you know, just across the whole horizon, you could see fireworks, like these great shows, like, happening all over the city. So we just popped the back of the car and sat in back and kinda got this free fireworks show, and it just, like, went on forever and was really cool. So depending on if you like fireworks or not, depending on if you’ve got pets or not, any of that stuff, you may hate this idea. But if you like fireworks, Omaha’s a pretty cool place to be over the fourth.

Well, that’s pretty awesome.

Yeah. Alright, Zach. You got anything for us?

Oh, man. I mean, that’s gonna be hard to follow-up.

So let’s see here.

As far as awesome goes, I will I will say that if you are looking for something awesome to do and you got time, definitely head up to Door County and check out places like Potawatomi State Park, Whitefish Dunes State Park.

Man, there’s just something really awesome about getting out there early in the morning, especially Whitefish Dunes and watching that sunrise over the lake. It’s just man, it there I got a spot. I call it my PowerPoint, and that’s where I go if I need, like, a little extra motivation and stuff. So, yeah, that would be that’s my awesome recommendation.

Love it.

Perfect.

Love it.

Well, I am the stars just aligned for me on this one because I came across an article that I found really, really interesting, and we have the perfect guest for me to bring this up.

What I learned from this article is that Gen Z is using ChatGPT for free therapy.

And very interesting article and from Fortune dot com. And it does go through, the things that I I would anticipate you would say, Zach, which is we need to use caution when we use something, like a large language model, AI for our therapy. We need to, the article says, you know, a lot of people who are having the best experiences are supplementing other traditional therapy in a way that is that is more immediate, that is available all, you know, all times day or night and things like that. But that, we should always use caution to use professionals and experts in their field and not just a large language model, which is trained on everything good and bad.

Mhmm.

So thoughts that Zach I’m interested to hear.

Oh my gosh. I can’t believe you brought this up now.

That’s another hour. Right?

No. I think so, it’s I ChatGPT, like, AI is, really cool and exciting.

And I think that we do have to use caution, right, because it it can give really bad advice.

Part of therapy sometimes is stepping out of your comfort zone, and that for some people means sitting across from somebody and talking about your feelings or, you know, talk having uncomfortable conversations. So from that perspective, it it would not be as helpful if you are skipping therapy sessions because AI is more comfortable.

If it is something where, you know, you need to remember how to do a certain self regulation skill, then I think it’s awesome. Right? Like, if it can lead you through like, the one that comes to mind is box breathing. So breathe in for four, hold for four. You know, like, all the you know, it talks you through breathing. I think that’s great.

And and I think it also can help with with research so that you can come back to your therapist and say, you know, I was I was thinking about this, talk talked it over with with chat. What do you think? You know, and have those discussions. But, yeah, I think, though, on the other side of that is you gotta really be careful about what’s gonna happen with that information, you know, and what how can that information be used? Because that’s the beauty of of therapy is it’s confidential.

Right.

It stays in this in the the room, and that’s what makes it a safe space.

So Yeah.

Is there has there ever been any talk about fully AI therapy or a fully AI therapy program or anything like that?

So I I mean, I’m sure there has. I just I haven’t seen it.

Oh, there are, like, AI scribes now, which, you know, I’ve tried out I tried one out, and it was pretty cool because it’s like, all I did was describe what the session was.

Because I didn’t I didn’t record the session because that’s extra paperwork, and I didn’t wanna deal with it. But and I let it but I told said what happened, you know, and and it was able to even, like, pin down, like, the specific approach that I used and the type of therapy I did. And I was like, that yes. That is awesome.

You know? So I think that it really does have a place in the therapy world. It’s just one of those things of it’s so new that we gotta we gotta figure out all the the safety measures and protocols and stuff. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I’m just similar to marketing, I think.

Yeah. I I was just gonna say I’m just, like, continually baffled. I don’t know why because, like, it’s just it seems to be the case in every industry, every specialty now. Like, everybody has a similar answer in that it’s proceed with caution.

Don’t forget the power of, you know, traditional methods and being outside of your comfort zone and stuff. And all of those things apply to marketing, whether it’s, you know, using ChatGPT or sitting comfortably using social media because that’s the place where you can do do marketing work and also hide a little bit. You know? Like, we gotta remember to do the things that take some more effort and takes more brainpower, and can be empowered by and amplified by an amazing tool like AI and stuff, because it is awesome in so many ways, but proceed with caution.

Yeah.

Yeah. But, I mean, if you’re not using it or you’re not learning how to use it, you’re you’re falling behind. Like Yeah. It it’s here.

So Yeah.

For sure. Well, thank you so much for being with us today, Zach. That was such an interesting conversation.

Yeah. See, I mean, proof of how easy it is to just get caught up late night talking to him.

So Right. Right?

Everybody got a taste.

Yeah. I mean, you guys just do such a great job making it so comfortable. You know?

Aw. Nice. I’ll I’ll admit. I was not sure when I saw what you did, Zach. I wasn’t sure if this was gonna be a podcast or an intervention. So I feel good that it turned out being a podcast. That’s that makes me feel great.

So Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you well, you know what? Hey. Anytime that you need an intervention, I will gladly show up, and we’ll we’ll set Ben straight.

Oh, good. Good.

I appreciate that. We’ll make sure that he he gets in line. K.

I’ve got a whole I’ve got a whole spiral notebook ready.

Oh, boy.

And I bring Get in line, Sue.

Me and everybody else. Right? Yeah.

Well, thank you everyone for joining us, listening to this really enlightening conversation. And, again, thank you, Zach, for being here with us. You can always catch up with us on your favorite podcast app or you can find all of our episodes on our blog at exclamation qso dot com slash blog.

Thanks, friends, for tuning in. Be awesome, and see you next time.

The Awesomology podcast is a production of Exclamation Services. Executive producers are myself, Ben Bauer, and my friend, Suzanne Campbell.

Thanks to Kylie Ganther for our show artwork, Scott Saager for booking our guest, and Alex Westerhausen for social media support.